Crystal Lay:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Roompact’s Res Ed Chat, where we highlight cool people who do cool things and talk about cool stuff in residence life and college student housing. I’m your host, Crystal Lay. I use the she/her series pronouns. Thank you for tuning in. Today we’re going to talk about a topic that I think is a little sensitive for me, so I want to name that upfront. I want us to talk about basic needs. And this topic is sensitive for me because I remember heading off to college, I was really excited, I had a full ride between financial aid and scholarships, no loans. And I did not believe I would have the opportunity to go to college. And I remember getting there thinking that everything was taken care of, particularly as a first gen low income student. And then I recall this moment of sitting in a class and I didn’t have my books, and my professor called me out publicly and it made it seem as though I wasn’t invested or interested because I did not have the book for this person’s class.
I also remember times when I was hungry outside of the times when the dining hall was open. And so for me, thinking about those moments of having additional needs or needing resources and feeling shame and not knowing where to go was really difficult. And I thought, although for me that was over 20 years ago, I know that that is still something that our students are going through. And so today, wanting to talk about for our students who live on campus in particular, what does basic needs mean, and providing the opportunity to learn a little bit more from someone who is really passionate and does this work every day to provide and support our students who attend our campuses. So with that, I will have our guests introduce herself.
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Thank you, Crystal. Thank you so much for sharing your story. And it’s very similar to what a lot of folks have experienced over time and still today. My name is Judy Crawford. I use she and her pronouns, and I currently serve as a director of student basic needs at UC Riverside. I’ve been doing work around basic needs for over six years. I’m very passionate about the work and have seen and felt the impact of what having these resources means and what happens when the resources are not met. So happy to be here and talk with you today, Crystal.
Crystal Lay:
Thank you. And Judy, you’re just someone, again, who is so passionate and puts your heart the work, and you’re so caring. So my first thought with this topic was to connect with you, and so I’m so glad we’re talking today. So when I think about basic needs, there’s three terms that I hear quite a bit. So can you tell us what’s the difference or can you define the terms basic needs, food security, and then housing insecurity?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah. So when it comes to defining basic needs, we as a UC system, we have a very specific definition. Typically, when you hear basic needs, you think of food, shelter, housing support, but us in the UC system, we really see this as an ecosystem that supports the financial stability, ensuring that there’s equitable access to food that’s nutritious and sufficient and affordable, safe and adequate housing to sleep, to study, to cook, and to shower, healthcare, to promote sustained mental and physical wellbeing, as well as things like affordable transportation, resources such as personal hygiene, and emergency needs for students with dependents. And I really like this definition because it goes beyond just the basics, food, housing, and some of those other areas. And I think what’s important about that is it kind of goes back to your story, right? You might come to college thinking, “Well, I got a meal plan and I have my first year of the residence halls covered.”
But there’s so much more that goes beyond that, right? “How am I going to afford my personal hygiene items? How am I going to get to the store to get what I need when the dining halls are closed? Healthcare, if I’m not able to get my healthcare needs within my student healthcare plan, how do I afford that? Or if there’s an emergency, if I experience an accident or there’s a theft or something, someone passes away my family and I have to fly back home unexpectedly, what happens then?” So this definition really looks at how all of these areas interplay with each other and the impact that it has. It’s more holistic. However, again, to bring it back to basic needs, we really think about food security, housing insecurity, and the access to the financial resources, especially around crises.
So I can share more about what food insecurity looks like. So in the basic needs world, we use USDA’s definition around food security. There’s a whole model to it, but to simplify it, there’s two different types of food insecurity. There’s what we call low food insecurity. So this is when we see students or people in general who have a reduced quality of food items available. And it might be because of lack of resources or availability. If we think about food deserts where you may not have access to local produce items or just grocery stores in general. So we might only be able to afford items on the dollar menu at a fast food restaurant versus being able to have a fully nutritious meal that is better for you at an affordable price. And this is important because while yes, you might still have your need met to have food available, the quality and the impact on your nutrition and your long-term health is significant. So it’s still considered low food security.
Now there’s a different level that goes beyond that, and that’s very low food security. And this one looks at both the quality but also the quantity, is kind of how I like to describe it. So this is when we see folks having to skip more meals because of lack of resources or availability. So this is a higher level and combined with having the lower quality access, it has a deeper impact on a person’s physical health, mental health, emotional health. And to your point earlier as well, there is a lot of stigma and shame because for the most part, you can go a day, even two days without eating. And unless you have told someone or unless someone knows you intimately, there’s no way that you may be able to tell that that has been someone’s experience. So it’s not something that people feel comfortable sharing as well because there’s stigma attached to it, unfortunately, which is what we’re trying to de-stigmatize. But it’s also something that can go unnoticed for long periods of time. So that’s how we look at food insecurity.
When it comes to housing, on the housing end, most folks in the basic needs world, and even folks that do services for housing in the city and nonprofits, a lot of us use the McKinney-Vento Act that has a very specific definition of homelessness, and it could apply to children, youth, adults, and it’s basically folks who lack fixed, regular, adequate nighttime residence. So examples of this can include sleeping in a hotel or motel, sleeping in a shelter, sleeping in your car, which a lot of is what we see more college students doing, right? There’s actually an assembly bill being worked on right now to allow students to, when they need to, sleep in their cars in the parking lot on campus, have more access to that without being ticketed or policed in that manner.
So there’s a variety of different areas that includes those areas. Even things like couch-surfing, which is a very common practice that we see a lot of college students doing. You might be going from one place to the other, it might be in between housing. Or your housing plans fell through, maybe you were on the wait list, you thought you were going to get in and then it didn’t, or you had a plan to move out with the roommate. And I mean, we’ve seen it all the time happen, and it’s a very real thing. And even though students may have lots of plans or maybe life was happening and you couldn’t plan, whatever the reason is, it still has a significant impact, again, on your overall health and wellbeing. So that’s the main area that we look at for homelessness.
Now, there is another term that we use, which is housing insecurity. With housing insecurity, this is more of an umbrella term that encompasses different dimensions of housing problems that really opens it up to a lot of folks. And I would say a lot more people experience housing insecurity than homelessness. And the reason for this is, examples of this include things like trouble affording and paying rent, or maybe having to have seven, eight people in a one or two bedroom apartment because that’s just we need to have more people in order to contribute to rent, or having to move frequently because you don’t have stability in your housing situation or you’re being kicked out of one place, now you have to go to another. And then another one is just spending the majority or bulk of your income on your housing. So it’s leaving hardly any room for food or other necessary expenses.
So what I like to share with both housing insecurity, homelessness and food insecurity is that this can range. When you experience one area, one of these categories, it doesn’t mean that you’re in it forever. It doesn’t mean that you’re in it just for a day or two. It can vary. Even someone who may have always had food on the table when they get to college and they’re far away from home, and maybe they want to just feel like, “Okay, I need to get it together and figure it out,” and they might be experiencing food insecurity for the very first time. And again, because there is stigma attached to it, a lot of the times these things go without folks knowing. So it varies and someone can experience homelessness for a short period of time or long period of time, but it’s still impacting their overall wellbeing. So I hope that that helps in understanding what the different terms mean and how we define them in this work.
Crystal Lay:
Thank you for sharing all those definitions and also providing examples. There was so much going through my mind as you were sharing pieces. As I think about housing in particular, when we have students who maybe they have used all their dining dollars, their meal plan is gone and there’s two weeks left in the semester, what are they doing? What are the programmatic pieces that we can do or ways we can work with our dining partners to remedy that, right? I know some campuses have food pantry. So that’s what was going through my mind as I think about those students. I also thought about when you mentioned students sleeping in cars, I have gotten those phone calls of saying, “We don’t want to give a person a ticket or we’re worried about their safety.” Because sometimes students have a roommate conflict. Or, “My roommate always has their partner over and I don’t feel comfortable, and so I sleep in my car or I’m couch-surfing.” So I think there’s some differences because they do have a place to call home, but the environment does not equal safe or comfortable or welcoming for them.
So those are some of the things I thought about. The other thing too, Judy, is if students are unhoused, I know we have policies where we have a guest policy, and so I wonder how often that guest may be unhoused and they’re needing to stay, and then we’re penalizing them because, “Well, you don’t pay to live in this room.” And so I think there’s just a lot of things to unpack with what you shared. So thank you. So now I want to get into, we provide housing for students, and I like to believe that, again, they have a room, they have a meal plan, they should be all set. It sounds like that might not be true. And so are you able to share, particularly for students who live on campus, they have a bed, they have a meal plan, what are some other basic needs or maybe some things that you’re noticing that we should be more aware of in particular for our on campus students?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Sure. I think what we see quite a bit is in our department, basic needs, is even students who live on campus and have housing and have a meal plan, they might be trying to slim down their meal plans., They’re on the smallest meal plan, which is not enough to have three meals every day, plus the dining halls do close at certain times, so it may not work with your schedule. And I know that there might be other options for students, but it makes it really challenging. So I think being aware of how many students are on that really limited food dining plan and sharing with them what resources exist for them to access other food resources, whether it’s through the on campus food pantry or their basic needs department or through community resources.
For the most part, many colleges and universities have some type of food pantry. While it’s still a new-ish area, it’s growing pretty rapidly. So there should be some resources or at least someone that can direct them to those resources. But I think it’s being mindful and aware of that and also to really be thinking about during the times that the dining halls are closed, when it might be winter break time or different period of time for whatever reason that the dining halls are closed, is really thinking about how is that being communicated to students ahead of time and what type of resources are those students receiving? Because if you are not familiar with the area, if you have limited transportation, limited resources, a lot of students are really left to fend for themselves, and that often means that they might be going hungry and having to really scrounge up and experiencing more of an impact than you would imagine.
I think another piece to think about when it comes to thinking about folks who live on campus is I know that there are some folks who don’t have a meal plan because they have apartment styles or different types of room setups where they have a kitchen, but a lot of students, it’s their first time living on their own and they may not have the resources or the knowledge to know how to prepare meals. So really being thoughtful in the programmatic aspect of how can we do some programming, provide some education, work with other partners that might be doing this work to share some foundational key things of like, “Hey, this is how you can upgrade something that’s affordable,” like ramen, which is not your healthiest thing, but there’s ways that you can revamp it to add more protein, vegetables, produce where it’s still within your budget, but there’s more nutritional value or there’s different substitutes that you can do.
So I think being thoughtful about that, that these students, it’s a lot and it’s not easy when you’re transitioning in. So ensuring that there’s a whole resource set out there for students I think is really important. And because it is true, I think a lot of students struggle because of the stigma that’s out there or someone’s just personal reason to not share. We’ve heard students that come into the pantry or refer to the pantry say, “I know this is here, I do need it, but I don’t want to take this resource away from someone else that needs it more.” Or, “My family doesn’t want me to take out any handouts.” And that you might be brought up in thinking that if you take a handout, then you’re taking advantage of the system or whatnot.
And there’s so many stories and stereotypes that go along with what it means to receive services. And it always breaks my heart a little bit because this is why we have these services. You’re not taking away from anyone else. We’re here to serve all students who are in need. And that’s a reason why for our pantry service, we don’t ask assessment questions of like, “Okay, well do you really need this? When was the last…” Because that makes students feel like, “Okay, well maybe I shouldn’t be here.” But I think that that’s a very real thing is dealing with that stigma. So just being aware and sharing as openly as possible that you don’t need to be starving to use these resources. If you feel you need them, you need them and they’re here for you to use.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah, can you imagine trying to show up and meet your educational goals when you’re hungry? Or how do you think or concentrate when you have this need, food and water? And so I think for those housing students in particular, going back to that question, is what are the moments where we can share resources or teach them how to cook or teach them life skills or budgeting? And again, not in this, “You should know,” or condescending, but, “This is a big time, this is transition. We want to prepare you and support you and provide these different really cool and accessible resources.”
The other thing I thought about too in housing is sometimes there’s this piece of, “Oh my gosh, can you believe that so-and-so took a whole box of pizza back to their room? Or so-and-so came to the event and just took food and left?” Now I’m thinking, maybe that’s okay, right? Because maybe that was their only meal or they’re trying to save stuff. And I think there’s always this, “Don’t buy pizza to get them to the event.” I don’t have an answer for it, but it’s just really putting these thoughts in my head of how do we rethink some of the perceptions that go along with food and what we offer in housing?
So I want to transition a little bit, because you’re sharing that there’s a lot of needs. You named so many different places. On a campus, where do you recommend folks would start? How do you assess the needs of your students because you don’t do the assessment when they come to the center, which makes complete sense to me. But it’s like, how do you even know where to start? How do I know what the students need? What are the gaps? What should we offer? How does a campus begin to do that? Does that question make sense?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah, yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think there’s different ways both at a micro level and at a macro level. I think at a macro level, it’s always helpful to have an assessment. So we do an undergraduate experience survey every two years for all students within the UC’s, and that captures a whole breadth of information of, “How often do you have to skip meals? And what impact does that have?” That is very valuable information because that gives us a bird’s eye view perspective of how many students are experiencing food insecurity. And the number’s always surprising.
At a micro level, I think the best thing to do is really just amp up, have open door like, “Hey, come if you need it.” And have services like the food pantry or other things that students can grab and go as they need it available. And then what we like to do is we like to do follow up. So if we see students that are accessing the food pantry consistently every week, we look at that data and we do outreach about, “Hey, here are some other resources like CalFresh,” which is also known as SNAP federally, which is a great food assistance program where students in California specifically can get over $290 every month on groceries, that you can get it from Walmart, you can get it from Trader Joe’s, wherever you shop, it’s likely you can use your EBT card. And that it helps them to provide additional resources.
So it’s thinking creatively of how you want to use your data, but also developing spaces for students who might need additional support to seek that and have some type of case management system to support students. And that’s when we usually typically do are what we call intake assessment of basic needs. So we’re able to sit down with students and ask, “Okay, well tell me what’s going on? And how are things going with your food resources? How’s your housing?” And that helps us get a good perspective for the student’s particular situation to be able to provide them with the more specific resources. So I think those are two ways that we can do it.
When I think about how residence halls and housing can do it, I think it’s looking at how many students maybe are in your most cheapest dining plan or don’t have dining plan and maybe providing some additional resources to them, and then bringing in your basic needs department or other food resources or housing resources and seeing how many people are attending those programs, assessing what the interest is there. So I think it’s always helpful to put all that information out there because I think I’m always surprised to see how many students come out to our events because you might think, “Oh, well, they may not be interested in this item,” or whatnot, but people come out. And I think it shows a need, continues to show the need for us. So those are some ideas and some examples of how we can help assess what the need really is.
Crystal Lay:
And that I absolutely love that you’re sharing folks are going. Whatever you’re doing, you and your team are saying, “It is okay, and we’re here,” and they’re coming out. And so I just want to say thank you. That really warms my heart, Judy. So I want to do this for example question for you. So let’s say I’m an RA or hall director, coordinator and a student comes to me and it comes up in the conversation and they share that they’re hungry. What would you, as someone who does this work, what would you want me to say? How should I respond in a way that feels authentic and real and empathetic? What would be your ideal response that a campus partner would say to that student?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah, I think it won’t be too different than if a student discloses they need other type of resources. We want to acknowledge, “Hey, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I know that doing that can be challenging and can bring up many things. I appreciate you letting me know. I want to let you know that there are several resources.” So the key is knowing what those resources are, right? Because sometimes there’s resources out there, and not that you have to become an expert in everything by any means, but having at least, “There is a department, there is a food pantry,” and working with them to say, “Hey, let’s connect about this. Let’s look at the website together. Let’s call, let’s walk over.” I think all of those pieces are so vital to the student’s experience in that moment, and just being able to be empathetic. And not feeling sorry for students, because that’s never what someone wants when they ask for help.
You want to feel heard, you want to feel seen, but you don’t want to be like, “Oh my goodness.” You have to show empathy. But there’s balance in letting them know that, “Hey, a lot of students experience food insecurity. What you’re going through, unfortunately, is more common than you may know. And this is why these services exist. So let’s get you connected because it could be really helpful.” We always love to share that our CalFresh program, SNAP, it’s like financial aid for food. People have normalized financial aid as a resource that’s very helpful to have, and there’s not a ton of stigma around that. So we like to reframing it in that way.
And I think what’s crucially important is doing some type of follow up with that student. Don’t just have the conversation where they might share and disclose what they’re experiencing and maybe tell them, “Oh, well just go to the food pantry,” and then you never talk about it again. Because it’s like, “Did I share it? Did they hear? Do they not care?” So I think it’s always important to be able to do a follow-up with that student so that they know that, “Hey, I heard you. I care about what you’re going through, and I want to make sure that you’re connected with the resources.”
So I think that doing something like that is perfect and would meet the need. I think knowing what resources are, sometimes there’s referral systems that you can submit so a student can get connected. It all depends on how your campus is set up. But just knowing what those key resources are and how to connect a student is very important. And then just being human. If this was your child, your nephew, your sister, your sibling, whatnot, how would you want someone to respond to that? So I think really putting ourselves in that position helps greatly.
Crystal Lay:
And I think there’s the shame piece. I think there’s also pride.
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
That comes up. And so I do remember when I turned 18 about to go to college, I got my letter in the mail that says, “You are now 18. You qualify for food stamps.” I was like, “No.” And I did not respond because the shame, embarrassment. And you naming just now a way to talk about resources and say, “This is financial aid for food,” that messaging, that language, I think the power, the words, how you say it, how you talk through it, and also let the student just sit with that, it’s just really beautiful. And I’m like, where were you when I went to college, Judy? You’re like, “Probably not born because I’m like…” Okay.
Crystal Lay:
Okay. All right. So this is my question. I’ve been waiting to ask you this question. So you know this, you have a housing background, so when RAs or whatever you call them on your staff, your campus, student staff that live in, when they apply for jobs, there’s this piece about, “We will not hire you because you just want the job for free room and board.” Right? “Don’t hire that candidate. They don’t want to be a leader. They just want free room and board. Are they going to do the job?” Based on the conversation we’re having, right, Judy, how should we think about this? Everything you’re helping us learn and think about how should we think about those particular candidates in our job search or recruitment processes for our student staff?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah, I remember having those conversations and thinking about that as we’re going through recruitment processes. And it’s funny, because I was thinking about it and a perk, it’s part of the salary. So of course students are going to want to take this job because it helps with that. So I think it’s putting ourselves in that position, that for many students that this is a reality that many students are going to want this job because it provides housing. And I think, looking back at my experience working in housing, I think a lot of the students that maybe there was this, I guess thought like, “Oh, well, maybe they’re just really focused on the housing piece.”
But when you give students a chance and you put the development in them, those are often the students that will work the hardest, that will grow the most. And it’s the most beautiful thing to see because when someone is dependent on, “I need this job because I need housing,” I mean, take that with a grain of salt because we don’t want to create that pressure of like, “Hey, if you’re not meeting standards, you’re out of here,” right? And most of the time that’s never the case. So just kind of being careful of not going too much one way or the other. But I think it’s understanding that housing is not cheap. Housing is not easy to come by. Especially after your first year of college, depending on where you’re going to school, it could be really, really challenging to find placement within university housing or even just finding housing in the area.
So it’s a highly sought position because of this, but I think it’s removing some of that judgment maybe of, well, people who express that in their interest in the position… Just getting it, “I get it, housing’s expensive.” And maybe trying to learn more about what they want to grow in and learn in. Because you obviously still want students that are interested in the leadership piece, the community building piece. So finding that balance, but not letting that be the determining factor of whether or not you’re going to bring someone on. Because it’s hard out here for students, and it’s not easy.
So yeah, I think those are my thoughts around that. Because I have seen it happen and yeah, it’s complicated. But I would say be more open to that response and really think about in the hiring and recruitment process, how can we reshape the questions that we ask, how we ask them, how we’re scoring our candidates based on their responses, so that it’s truly inclusive. Because if we’re really highlighting students or marking them down because they express that they want this job, what does that mean on an equity standpoint? Because that’s likely more low income students, more students of color. So when we think about the different layers, I think there could be more pieces to it that I think we should just be mindful of.
Crystal Lay:
Yes, and how many of us have not taken a job because of the salary?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
And so I think there’s that piece too of, “Okay, if I really think about this, they’re talking about something that matters.” And so thinking about it as, “This is what they get in exchange for performing this work, it’s important to me as a professional. Why wouldn’t it be important to them as a student?” So I appreciate that perspective. We spend most of our time, Judy, talking about how this affects students. I suspect particularly around COVID time too, and I know a campus I was at previously, furloughs happened. So staff, I think staff can be experiencing difficulties. Also live-in folks when they get ready to transition off campus, it’s like, “Can I take another job? Because now I don’t have that housing and food provided to me.” And so what can departments do? Residence life, campus living, housing departments do with regard to basic needs for their career staff?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think this one I think requires also having higher level administrators be aware of the need because it’s hard to make significant changes and provide significant resources within your small department. Because we can share resources within the community with each other, but I think at the end of the day, folks need a livable wage. They need access to housing that’s affordable in the area. Just even the cost of parking is so expensive on so many campuses. So I think that always is a core piece of it. But there are many staff who experience food insecurity and housing insecurity, and there is this thought that, “Oh, well, they have a job. Why would they need these resources?” But when you look at the cost of food, inflation, and how that has increased, the cost of housing, the cost of transportation, all of these things have gone up significantly and people’s pay has not matched up at all.
So it is becoming increasingly more difficult for folks to access these resources. And when we have programs that are specific for staff, folks show up. At UCR, the student staff assembly, they have allocated funding to have a staff pantry. So it happens once a month and we serve over 250 staff every month that come out. There’s a line that’s out the door and folks get two bags of groceries, and includes dry goods and produce. But I think there’s always this question of like, “Oh, well, do staff really need it, especially after the pandemic?” Yes, they are still coming out. We see not just the same folks, but we see different faces come through often. So it is absolutely a need. It gets complicated with funding, and that’s something that is always a thing, but I think that’s why there should be more advocacy at the higher level to ensure that folks have a livable wage.
And I think the last thing I’ll say around this is, just as we’re sharing resources about CalFresh and other services that are helpful for folks, a lot of these are not exclusive to college students. Any person can apply for CalFresh benefits. There are eligibility criteria such as income and unfortunately status in the country, but a lot of folks are eligible for these services. And it’s helpful just to let folks know, because that could be an extra 200 or 300, depending on how many people are in your household, that you can have towards groceries to make life a little bit easier so that you don’t have to stretch yourself so thin every time.
Crystal Lay:
Yeah, or telling the kids, “”No, you had dinner, drink some water. You don’t need a snack.” I think there are things you do to regulate with the cost of living, like you talked about earlier, to make things stretch. And how amazing would it be to make sure we were more open and public about all the resources that are available and/or create opportunities for folks to advocate for more and different and better for our team members. So thank you. So if folks want to learn more about supporting students with basic needs, do you have any recommendations for where they should start or how they can learn more?
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah. So if you want to learn more about what the UC system is doing, the UC system is doing a lot of really amazing things. And I will say this just because I’m in the UC system, but there is a lot of great efforts and trailblazing that the UC system has been doing around basic needs work. And that’s been going on for over 10 years. So it’s been happening for quite a while. So UC basic needs research does exist. There’s dashboards that collects data. There’s also a new organization called CEJA, and I can definitely add all of this information in the show notes. But CEJA provides resources specifically around basic needs, and there’s ongoing and current research that’s being done on these efforts.
There are a variety of other national organizations like Real College, Hope Center, which now has a new name that I can’t recall, but those are great resources that look at things at a national level. If you are within any California state system such as CSU Community College System or the UC’s, there’s CHEBA, which is an organization of all those universities that do work around basic needs. And I think there’s a lot of room to grow and to do more research. So we are always doing a call-out, if there are folks that are interested in this area, there’s a lot that we still need to do learning on because there’s so much out there that we haven’t really delved into. So I can definitely share more information and links to provide in the show notes, but I think that those are good places to start.
Crystal Lay:
Judy, this has been so informative, and heartwarming, and also just real. I think we have to have these conversations. And when we talk about theory and we look at Maslow, that very bottom rung is about making sure that folks can have food, safety, water, these pieces so they can even move to the next level. And so if we want our students to be at their best and reach their goal of graduation and success, which is why they’re coming to our institutions, we have to make sure we’re having conversations about how we are meeting their basic needs. I thank you so much for the advocacy, the support, the education, the things that you’re doing, and that campus is so lucky to have you. And I hope that folks leave feeling inspired and wanting to advocate and ask more questions on their home campuses. So thank you for your time.
Judy Juarez Crawford:
Yeah, thank you for having me, Crystal.
Crystal Lay:
Of course. So, hey, thanks everyone for listening or watching. If you have a topic or a person that you would like us to connect with, please reach out to us here at Roompact and take care.
